Luke Charters, MA'17 (MAPSS), UK Labour Member of Parliament for York Outer, joins our hosts to talk about what brought him to UChicago and the path to political service the masters program put him on.
Episode 2:
Luke Charters is the Labour Member of Parliament for York Outer, elected in the July 2024 general election. Prior to his poltiical career, Charters worked at the Bank of England as well as the Financial Conduct Authority, focusing on fraud, before serving as a Senior Manager of Compliance at Remote, a payroll and HR services company.
Charters earned his BA from Oxford University and his MA from the University of Chicago MAPSS program in 2017.
Alumni of the Division of the Social Sciences are characterized by Chicago’s deep commitment to scientific analysis, methodological innovation, and the use of theory to extend the explanatory and predictive power of social research. Whether an MA or PhD graduate (or both), each takes those values into careers in the academy and in a broad range of sectors including banking and finance, technology, and social technology, consulting and market research, health fields, and government/policymaking, among others.
SSD’s Dialogo podcast brings alumni into conversation with Paul Poast, Associate Professor in the Department of Political Science and Deputy Dean for Doctoral Education, and Kelly Pollock, Dean of Students. Each season will feature alumni with careers in a particular field or industry.
Kelly:
Welcome to Dialogo, an alumni podcast. In each episode, we interview an alum of the social science division here at the University of Chicago, exploring their career path and reflecting on their time at UChicago. I am Kelly Pollack, the Dean of Students for the Social Sciences Division at the University of Chicago.
Paul:
And I'm Paul Post, Deputy Dean in the Social Science Division at the University of Chicago.
Kelly:
And today we are thrilled to be joined by Luke Charters, a member of Parliament of the United Kingdom, and a 2017 graduate of the Master of Arts program in the Social Sciences. Welcome, Luke.
Luke:
Thank you so much for having me. Gosh. I mean, 2017 feels like a lifetime ago, but yeah, really looking forward to being on the podcast.
Kelly:
Yeah. I'd love to start by asking just a little bit about how you came to be part of the MAPS program. I know you grew up in York area and then you went to Oxford. How did you... Oxford, did I get that right? Sorry.
Luke:
That's right, yes. Yes.
Kelly:
And so how did you then end up at the University of Chicago in the MAPS program?
Luke:
Well, I've always been interested in IR and politics. UChicago has always been top of mind for me, and I actually had an offer to come to UChicago for my undergrad, but Oxford picked you to the post and I did a course at Oxford called Politics Philosophy Economics, which is a really prestigious course. And so I was feeling as I was missing out on that UChicago experience and the MAPS program that I did was a great way to spend a bit of time over in UChicago.
Paul:
During your time here, you obviously focused on international relations, political science. Can you talk a little bit about what your time here was like and in particular, share a bit about what you ultimately wrote your master's thesis on?
Luke:
Yeah, sure. I mean, the huge thing for me was I had a fantastic time at Oxford, but British academia can be so theoretical at times and coming to the SST in UChicago, it was that more practically focused and oriented course, which I really welcomed. And so some of the courses I did on the MAPS program were things like nuclear policy over at the Harris School, things like US Foreign Policy course over at the Harris School. But most fond memory for me was working with Professor Bob Pape on my MAPS thesis, which I did on state-sponsored terrorism, focusing on the Gaddafi regime and how they sponsored the IRA and what are the strategies you could employ to circumvent and undermine those terrorist networks. And for me, it was that shift from the philosophical and the theoretical to the practical that made me feel quite prepared for a career in public policy and ultimately politics. It was a hugely formative experience for me.
Kelly:
Do you still think about those, the courses, the methods, the things you were doing in the MAPS program? Now that you are in fact in politics, in policy, how does that preparation affect your thinking and the way that you do politics?
Luke:
No, for sure. And of course now that I'm a member of Parliament, really interested in international security and of course I think back to my master's thesis as one of my recent questions here in Parliament was asking about the Iranian state sponsorship of the Houthis, Hamas and Hezbollah and so on and I think right back to my master's thesis. But I think from a methodological perspective as well, the course I did, the MAPS course was hugely beneficial in applying theoretical academic concepts to public policy. I'm not needing to shy away from referencing academic research in professional work as well, and it was that really formative bridging experience that I found beneficial with the MAPS course.
Paul:
I love hearing that. As someone who teaches a number of students in the MAPS course in CIR is being able to hear about exactly that. The idea that these concepts, methodological, theoretical, conceptual, they do have, they're not just in the ivory tower. Yes, we have them here, but they can be drawn out and applied elsewhere.
Luke:
And take Bob Pape's work. His seminal book really I recall was Bombing to Win and it was about a denial type strategy, comparing that to punishment type bombing campaigns. The work I'm doing now in Parliament, I'm doing quite a lot of work around fraud and economic crime and sanctions and so on. And actually from that thesis, that central utility function you came up with and all the quantitative research that followed, it's those denial type strategies that are so efficacious and actually when it comes to fraud and economic crime and changing state behavior, I find even now as a parliamentarian that it's those reliable denial type frameworks that I see as the most efficacious. That framework certainly stayed, is quite pertinent for me and remains an important source of thinking.
Kelly:
I want to ask a little bit more about the fun parts of being in an MA program in the United States in Chicago. That must have been a very different kind of experience for you coming over to the United States for a year. Could you talk a little bit about that, what it was like coming over, what your experiences were like in Hyde Park in Chicago?
Luke:
Loved it in Hyde Park, I was living on campus. Loved Chicago. It's an incredibly warm place and have so much fun from beer festivals, road trips out to DC, hanging out downtown and Medici's and all of these wonderful places on campus. You're making me really feel a bit homesick about all these places and Baskin and Robbins and just all the little things and the treasured memories of the Hyde Park area. And as a Brit coming over to Chicago, I was always a source of intrigue, especially being a Northerner living in the north of England. And very quickly some of my friends, colleagues and teaching staff got to grips with my Yorkshire accent and they realized that British people, they don't always sound like in some of the Christmas movies, they were getting to grips with my regional personality and styles. I have great lifelong friendships, huge fun, one of the best decisions I made. And I'm always encouraging British students to think about doing a master's or undergrad course in the US and no better place than UChicago, right?
Paul:
No. That's very much appreciate hearing that for sure. Though I smiled when you said Chicago warm place. Obviously you mean it in this, but right now it's I think [inaudible 00:07:19].
Luke:
Yes. Well, apparently when I was there it was a really mild winter. Really mild winter. Warm personalities of those around. But I had this unusual deal where I got, I think everyone pulled in. It was a monthly arrangement where I would clear the driveway if it snowed and things like that, and I would get some kind of a hundred dollars or something, I can't remember, but I only had to do it twice because it was the most mild season. I think I brought the dreary British weather over with me a little bit and it was very mild.
Paul:
Well, at this point I'd love to pivot a little bit from your time at UChicago to having you just share about your path after UChicago that led you into politics and obviously to the point that you are now. And so we'd love to hear a bit about your journey right after Chicago, moving into elected politics.
Luke:
I got a confession to make. I was in the library on campus. I got a call and it was the 2017 general election and they had asked me to be a candidate in the 2017 election in a seat. We weren't expecting to win at the time, so that was the first I had to leave campus. I went straight to O'Hare and signed the paperwork and I completed some of my MAPS course remotely. That was the first shock into my political career basically, from campus life to being a candidate in a snap election. But once I'd settled and I'd finished my thesis over the summer and worked remotely, finished my MAPS course, I started my career at the Bank of England, UK Central Bank. Really fantastic experience there, firstly as a analyst working on payments and things like fraud. But actually one of my most enjoyable jobs of all was working on what was called technically the Polymer Bank Notes program.
And what that was really, it was the UK's program to bring in plastic money. And I know you folks, you still got your paper bills, but in the UK we shifted to plastic. Better for the environment but actually better for the prevention of counterfeiting, and that was a hugely fascinating experience. I then went over to the FCA, which is the regulator of the banks and financial institutions in the UK. Again, working on fraud, but then the big gong struck of the pandemic and life changed there really and my role shifted effectively to making sure the banking system in the UK was still operational in the very height of the pandemic, making sure banks literally stayed open. When you called the bank, making sure that there was someone to pick it up on the end of it, making sure there was enough cash circulating in UK banks, really intriguing time working at pace remotely to do such important work.
And after doing a little bit more around the regulator strategy, I went into tech, had a fantastic few years at a tech company called Remote. They're all about global talent and some of the financial rails and legal rails that can enable global talent around the world. And I worked my way up to acting head of fraud and financial crime, fighting fraudsters, protecting the company, really fascinating to work in a tech environment. And from there we were soon into the general election. Those seven, eight years or so in my career sailed by and quickly found myself at the start of an election campaign early this year.
Kelly:
Did you always want to run for office? I mean, if you were running all the way back in 2017, was this something that you had always envisioned as part of your career?
Luke:
Well, I had a surprise call from the Labour Party when I was still in Hyde Park. As they say, "Please get over here quickly. We want you to run for Parliament. We can't help you win. We don't think you're going to win." But that was a hugely beneficial experience. Do you know, I've always been interested in politics, that art of service, the act of giving back, and it was a great education I had in what we call a state school, what you folks would call a public school, really resonated with me. In the UK we have the NHS of course, free at the point of use, and it was that health system that saved my family so many times so I wanted to give back. I knew I wanted to go into politics.
At the same time, I always felt that politicians I looked to and admired, and one of them in the UK is Rachel Reeve, she's now the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the first female and Labour Chancellor, and she'd done quite a number of interesting things outside of politics like work at the Bank of England. I was really fascinated to try and gain some professional experience outside of politics. And I'm really pleased how things have turned out because it means as a newly elected MP, there's already different policy areas where I've got a really deep understanding that I can move the debate on. To anyone thinking about politics, definitely think about taking some time out of politics before doing so.
Paul:
That's actually something I think is just fascinating about your bio is in many ways you're the ideal person for any of our MAPS students to talk to. And when they say, "What can I do with a MAPS degree?" And here obviously you've worked the Bank of England, you've worked in the tech industry, now you're an elected official. And in what way, I mean, I guess we could build a little bit on that last point you said, is in what way do you see all of those experiences helping you now?
Luke:
Well, that's too kind, Paul. I think my career since MAPS has been a bit of a melting pot, different things. Central bank, working on bank notes to working on fraud and working in a tech company. It's been a melting pot of different concepts and disciplines. That was what I loved about MAPS. You could tuck in and take your interest. Nowhere else can you do nuclear policy one minute, counterterrorism the next and do some methodological stuff around anthropology, sociology, and so forth. It fit my personality type in many ways and in this uncertain jobs market of the future, we need people that have got the wherewithal to adapt and change and fit and move into different roles. And for me, the versatility of MAPS was really interesting. I should say at any point the division bells might go. You'll hear those and unfortunately I have to run off and we'll pick up the next questions afterwards.
Kelly:
Okay, sure. Yeah. We have talked some about the policy parts of your job and the voting parts of your job, but I've looked through your Instagram account and one of the huge parts of your job is just talking to people, meeting with people. Could you talk some about that aspect of being a member of Parliament?
Luke:
Well, the best part of being an MP is representing people, visiting schools and holding what we call in the UK advice surgeries. People will come to me as their MP if they're stuck. I've recently helped someone who was about to be deported from the UK. Well, he was working in a hospital and actually I managed to get him a place to stay in the UK because there was some errors in the whole process. To him that was life changing. And that's the reason that I got into politics. So many cases, I've helped someone who has had a really bad housing situation get a new house. I've represented people in Parliament, talked about their personal stories. This is what it's about and this is why politics has lost touch across the Atlantic, all parties for the last decade.
Politics is a deeply personal thing. It's got to be the professional art of storytelling and everything that I try and do is keep at the back of my mind those individual people that I met on the campaign trail that I meet in my advice surgeries and everything that I do in Westminster first and foremost. And there's good examples of that across parties here in the UK, conservatives who are the opposition. There's certainly some MPs that deeply value and respect their constituents and work really hard from them. That culture of service representing your constituencies is really important.
Paul:
Obviously the election just happened this year, and so you're new to the Parliament, but of course you've now been in it for several months. And one thing we'd love to ask is just where do you see things going for the next year, for the next few years? Where do you see things going forward?
Luke:
Really open question there. I think for us, it had been a conservative government for 14 years and you folks in the US system, you get much more change in Congress, the House of Representatives, two-year terms. 14 years has been a long time and we are unpicking a lot of what I believe went fundamentally wrong about Britain. Our health service, broken. Schools, broken. Defense, not really fit for the future. Roads, potholes. The climate emergency, are we doing enough in that space? Economic growth was quite sluggish compared to our international competitors. So many sectors underperforming. The different regions in the UK, the north of England underperforming compared to the south of England. That I'm afraid is the division bell. I don't know if you can hear it. That's the division bell. I'm going to have to shoot and vote on the finance bill, but I'll pick up with you soon.
Kelly:
It took a couple of weeks, but we got back on Luke's schedule to finish up our recording with him. Welcome back, Luke. I'm so glad we were able to find time again on your schedule to speak with you.
Luke:
Great to be back. Sorry about the division bells.
Paul:
Yeah, actually on that note, Luke, can you just share a little bit about that process because I'm sure that is a regular process and it's one that a lot of alums would probably be especially interested in of the fact that there was the bell and you had to be called away. I mean, how does this whole process work? We'd love to just hear a little bit about that.
Luke:
Well, we Brits, we do the traditions well and that's certainly the case here in Parliament. Whenever there is a vote in Parliament, the bells go off and that signifies the start of the division, and where I am, my office is on one far end of the estate. I've actually got eight minutes to run over to the House of Commons through the division lobbies until they lock the doors, they physically lock the doors. A division occurs when there is a vote on an amendment or a bill itself.
How that process starts is the speaker will say and will call a division, but it will go to the voices first. She will say or he will say, "Of many of those that are of the opinion say aye," and all of the MPs will go, "Aye," collectively. "And of those of the contrary, no." And if there are no voices, there will actually be a division called MPs, that whole process won't be triggered. But presumably as is often the case, there is a difference of opinion and even there are one or two dissenting voices, a division will be triggered and the bells will go off and I'll have eight minutes to go over there.
You actually get locked in the division lobbies, which are at the either side of the House of Commons chamber. You get locked in until what's called a teller goes and stands outside of them. They are people to count the people in and out and each of the parties effectively the opposition and the government have to put up their own tellers after each vote. You file through past those tellers individually one by one. It's quite a slow movement of people and if there are alums that are anthropologists and know about the flow of human beings and so on, it's quite a slow movement. And actually it can take 10 minutes, but it's a really good opportunity to capture the ear of quite senior politicians. You've literally got them trapped side by side with you whilst you file through like penguins. And so just at one of the last divisions I was lobbying some of the ministers and trying to get ministerial meetings in and it is an interesting quirk of British democracy, one that could be refined but hopefully never totally dropped.
Paul:
Well, thank you for that. That is super interesting. And again, I know I'm appreciating just hearing that to understand better the context, but I'm sure our listeners do as well. But yeah, that is really fascinating and this idea of just, I mean, again, the idea that you have eight minutes to get there and if you don't get there, you're locked out. That is, I can now fully understand why you were like, "That's it, I'm sorry, I have to go."
Luke:
Unless you have an office really near the chamber, but there's this quid per quo, you're trading off proximity to some of the other facilities within your office. You've got to think, do you want to be flee to foot for the sake of having a nice fridge and a nice coffee machine or do you want to slower walk over when the division bell goes. A classic economics trade-off problem.
Kelly:
I wanted to ask you, you have a young child, I know at least within the US a lot of our members of Congress and even in state legislators tend to be a lot older. And so there's been a real push to try to get younger people running for office, especially people who have young children so that there's representation of young parents in our government. Could you talk a little bit both about the challenges of being a member of Parliament with a young child, but also in the importance of representation of a young parent in Parliament and what that means in terms of the kinds of legislation that you might be supporting?
Luke:
Well, I really appreciate the question. Thank you. And it's a really challenging thing. Often you're away from your young family for a good part of the week. I've got two-year-old son called Robin, but I think it does make you a better legislator. I'm one of the youngest MPs in Britain. I'm 29 with a young family, soon to be another one on the way as well, which will be really exciting later this year. I think it does change those priorities. For example, just yesterday I was meeting our Secretary of State for education to talk about how do we make childcare better and perhaps historically you maybe wouldn't have had some of those voices raise these issues. I've just been through a really complex journey to apply for childcare funding and once you've been through a public service, you've experienced something yourself, you've got a very different spin on it. I think it's hugely important across legislatures around the world to get those younger families in.
But I've certainly got so many stories to tell. Just yesterday my son was here in Parliament. He was actually in what's called a member's tearoom, which is where MPs go for tea between divisions and meetings. And he was in there chasing me with his dinosaur toy and making me sing Old MacDonald in front of government ministers. It's a great leveler and I always say I'm a dad first and an MP second. And I think that grounding is really important because given the architectural design of the Palace of Westminster and its grandeur, it boxes you in and it almost intentionally cuts you off from the world. And I think having family embedded in everything that you do as a legislator is really grounding and hopefully yields to better work.
Kelly:
I also wondered if you have any advice for either our current students or our alumni who are thinking about running for office themselves?
Luke:
Well, the fact that you're thinking of running for office in and of itself is a great thing, regardless of which party. I think for me, if you are hungry to give back, if you are hungry to serve and repay some of the benefits that you had perhaps growing up in your own life through great education, through a healthcare system, if you're in it for those reasons of service, then leap at the opportunity. But equally, do you ever think is it right for you? Because it is a really taxing thing to do in terms of one's mental health and you need to think, do you have the resilience and stamina to do it? Because in this age of this populist politics, sometimes posting on social media can feel like you're in the trenches and the level of abuse and so on is very high for politicians at almost any level of elected office.
But if that hunger and that burning desire for service and to give back outweighs some of those negatives, then grab it with every opportunity, but go into it for the right reasons and that's always others. And I think what I would always say is don't let being a politician define who you are. Don't let it become your personality. Be the same person. And for me that is hopefully being a family-orientated person, dad first and so on. Always be courteous and respectful to others and I think you'll go further along the way. Have a think, but if service is the thing that motivates you, then absolutely jump at it.
Paul:
Just to build on that real quick, out of my own curiosity, how is it that you handle criticism and so forth being in a public position and given that that is something that you just highlighted, the notion of being in the trenches, whether it's social media or even traditional media, what are strategies that you've used to be able to not let that derail you or be able to keep it in perspective?
Luke:
Well, I hope he won't mind, but the Archbishop of York gave me some really interesting personal advice and he warned against developing too much of a thick steel-like skin as an individual. We so often think the answer to dealing with negativity and abuse is to develop a thick skin that nothing can permeate. I think that can be negative because it can change the personality of someone. That's almost the wrong analogy to have and I think it's so important to define it in those terms. I think those around you, those who you respect, your colleagues, your family, friends, really absorb and care about the feedback that they give you. But if it's a troll, if it's a bot on social media, my best advice is to actually not look at them, as simplistic as it sound.
I recently posted a video on X and it had over 2000 replies to it, and there was every degree of hatred under the sun directed almost to me personally. I think it leads to the better outcomes if you don't look at those, if your team do look into those yourself, if there are any violent threats unfortunately in there just to do that screening. But it's best to keep your own protected spaces to create those dividing lines and to be able to switch off.
And one of the personal things that I often do is if I'm going on, I'm making sure I'm taking breaks, I will delete social media apps and so on. But really be careful. You're not going to benefit much from reading replies. And celebrate the positives as well. Being in politics means you can achieve life-changing outcomes for people that don't make it into the conventional and social media. For example, I stopped someone from being deported who is a hero. He works in York's A&E and the fact that I've been able to help him has had life-changing results. When I shook his hand outside York A&E and he looked me in the eye with some great emotion, that's quite enough to sustain me. Find those wins and celebrate them in yourselves. It's those you're fighting for and it's not those trolls and those bots. Don't let them define you.
Paul:
That's wonderful advice, wonderful advice. At this point, I think a thing we like to be able to ask is just what haven't we asked? Is there something that you feel like you would like to share or you feel like we should have asked you? We always think it's good to offer this open-ended type of question, if you will.
Luke:
I just went back to my old secondary school, which is what you folks would call high school, and I gave a big speech about my life. I don't know if I warrant the title of being a motivational speaker just yet, but I was certainly very humble to be asked. And I was really reflecting on how my time at high school had defined who I was and how my time at Oxford, and certainly in many ways more than I'd ever imagined. UChicago defined me in that practical hands-on academic experience being immersed in a wonderful city with great faculty. And so what's been really cathartic and almost healing as I'm in this new chapter in my life is being able to reflect on those principally academic experiences. And not only how they've defined you academically and professionally, but how have they defined who you are as a person. And I wondered if, Paul and Kelly, you've reflected on your own time at UChicago and how it's affected you and changed you personally? I'd love to throw one back at you about how the UChicago experience shaped you personally.
Kelly:
Yeah, I just recently hit 20 years working at the University of Chicago, so I've been reflecting on how it's affected me, and I think it would be impossible for it to have not impacted my life after 20 years. I think for me it's forced me to just never stop thinking deeply about everything. Everyone I talk to at the University of Chicago is such an intense and interesting thinker. And so whatever problem, whatever interesting challenge we're working out, no matter how mundane it might be, people are coming at it with such interesting and really thoughtful ideas and have really approached things with such a depth of just real thought. And so I think for me, that's what University of Chicago has meant to me and the way it's affected me.
Paul:
It's a wonderful question and there's a lot of ways that I could answer it. I've been at the university now for almost 10 years, but the one thing that has really stood out to me at the University of Chicago, and it relates very much to what Kelly was just saying, and I think it's something that you yourself can appreciate, is my experience advising students, whether they're working on their BA thesis, MA thesis, obviously PhD students, how much of a joy it is to be around people who are very keen on something, something intellectually that it is, all of us have different interests and so forth, but it is always so rewarding to be around a student, whether an undergrad student [inaudible 00:31:27] master's student, PhD student who is intellectually obsessed about something. And to the point we're like, "Wow, you have really thought deeply about this and you have thought about all the angles to this."
And to me, that is the hallmark of what a UChicago student is at all levels is just this deep intellectual curiosity. Maybe not about everything because we can't be curious about everything. And in fact, the academic nature is as professors, we focus on a particular topic. But it's just fascinating to see that at all the levels that it's like regardless of the student that you find on this campus, they have that deep intellectual curiosity about something. And that has been for me, I don't know if I would say it's changed me, but it's made me even more appreciative of that form of deep inquiry and the fact that that's not always something that's done everywhere. And so I think that for me is what really stands out.
Luke:
I think it's that multidisciplinary curiosity that's so unique at UChicago.
Paul:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, and it's something that I think the very structure of, well, hence the program that you were part of where the way the university is structured both in its degree programs, but also just administratively, having the social science division that it's like we think about it, there's always the discussion about how the social science research building, it's science without an S, it is a discipline in and of itself. And that mindset naturally leads to it being multidisciplinary. You have to think about the economic angle, the psychological angle, the anthropological angle, all the different angles from the social sciences to be able to really understand something.
Kelly:
Luke, how can listeners follow you on social media and give you hopefully just very nice comments?
Luke:
Oh, well that's very generous. Well, you can find me on Twitter, X, but I'm increasingly, or rather decreasingly spending time on there. LinkedIn, Blue Sky, Facebook. If something's resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. But I really miss UChicago. I'd love to come over back onto campus and meet some undergrads and grads and faculty and get to know how campus has maybe changed over the last seven, eight years. And I'd love to have the opportunity to give back and do what I can for the UChicago community.
Paul:
Well, Luke, it's been an absolute pleasure having this conversation with you and this very unique conversation with you. And so it's really been a joy and thank you so much for taking the time twice to meet with us and chat.
Luke:
Well, thank you for having me. It's been a real privilege.